Пресс-конференция Мусcы Ибрагима 22 июля

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Две недели назад Мусса Ибрагим, “голос” законного правительства Ливии, провел в Триполи пресс-конференцию. Он ответил на вопросы журналистов, и большая часть его ответов касалась позиции Правительства и Лидера ливийского народа в конфликте.

Часть 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYV3Oa72TgU

Часть 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saedGLDTVDg

Часть 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POcMEHLmz8E

Перевод: ja-za-kaddafi.livejournal.com

ВНИМАНИЕ! Пресс-конференция переведена не полностью. Для тех, кто читает по-английски, после русского текста дается транскрипт полного текста речи на английском. Два фрагмента опущены – один вопрос про “вчерашний” взрыв газового баллона, второй про содержащихся под стражей журналистов.

Часть 1 (оригинальный ролик на YouTube)

00: 00: Как я сказал, поскольку вооруженные банды проигрывают войну на земле в Западных горах и в эль-Бреге, поскольку они это чувствуют (это, кстати, ответ на ваш вопрос, я просто описываю общую картину) из-за громадных, массовых демонстраций, прошедших за последние несколько недель, из-за беспрецедентной поддержки руководства Ливии западными, центральными и южными племенами, им остается только прибегать ко лжи, атакам в СМИ и дезинформации для укрепления – и в этом печальная сторона истории – боевого духа молодых бойцов в восточной части страны ради того, чтобы те продолжали атаковать эль-Брегу и умирать в бою.

В действительности происходит вот что: они повсюду получают жесткий отпор, и, даже если им удается захватить территорию на день, два или даже на неделю, они знают, что она будет легко отвоевана вооруженными силами Ливии, как только утихнут бомбардировки НАТО. Это расстраивает Национальный совет предателей в Бенгази, которым становится все труднее вербовать людей. Так что единственное поведение для них в этой ситуации – и я это говорил, я говорил что для вербовки они будут врать снова и снова – это лгать, что там-то одержана маленькая победа, что г-н Абдулла аль-Сенуси был убит, что сифилис, что такой-то ливийский генерал или политик получил ранения, ради того чтобы поднять боевой дух молодых бойцов в Бенгази, эль-Бейде, эль-Мардже, ввести в заблуждение и обманом вовлечь их в гражданскую войну – или в вооруженную банду – чтобы их убили при штурме эль-Бреги. Это очень печально, но такова правда.

Мы уже давали цифры суммарных потерь при эль-Бреге с обеих сторон. Самое печальное, что я должен вам сообщить – это то, что в боях при эль-Бреге каждый день гибнут десятки молодых ливийцев. Эту информацию не сообщают людям на востоке страны, поэтому они продолжают отправлять своих детей на фронт, полагая, что эль-Брега падет, за ней падет Триполи, и они одержат победу.

В реальности дело обстоит так: наша мощь огромна, наше правительство и государство крепки, оно не рушится и не разваливается, мы в состоянии исполнять все обязанности законного правительства – от открытия небольшой школы в крохотном городке до строительства крупных заводов, создания министерств, в то время как на Востоке неспособны даже поддержать работу школ. Наша мощь и сила велики, и они заключаются не только в наших вооруженных силах.

И это та информация, которую должны через вас получить НАТО и страны Запада. Наша сила – не только в вооруженных силах. Вам стоит знать, что она заключена в племенах и народных массах, сплотившихся вокруг законного правительства этой страны. Поэтому, даже если НАТО будет продолжать бомбардировки долгие и долгие месяцы, у них ничего не выйдет. Фактически, по мере того как НАТО убивает все больше людей, – большое несчастье, что это происходит! – и повстанцы, вооруженные банды, убивают все больше людей, и все больше людей гибнут в стычках, в бой вступает все больше племен, и их переход на сторону повстанцев становится невозможным, поскольку происходит то, что война перестает быть политической, она теряет политизированность и становится войной чести.

Когда ливийское племя теряет 50 юношей в войне с НАТО и вооруженными бандами, НАТО навсегда теряет возможность привлечь это племя на свою сторону. Понимание этого ускользает от НАТО и стран Запада – что они давно настроили ливийский народ против себя. И в наших глазах юноши становятся мучениками, ведь именно так мы, мусульмане, понимаем «смерть за веру». Когда кто-то становится мучеником, пролитая им кровь дает нам силы сражаться и побеждать, и видит Бог, что НАТО и вооруженные банды пролили достаточно мученической крови, чтобы мы сражались до Судного дня.

Мы обращаемся к НАТО: вы проигрываете и вы проиграете. Мы обращаемся к вооруженным бандам в Западных горах и на Востоке страны: у вас в Ливии нет будущего. Вы проиграли, признайте это. Вам нужно, чтобы НАТО постоянно было рядом, прикрывало, защищало вас, бомбило для вас. А НАТО прекратит это, оно не может делать это постоянно. И что вы будете делать тогда? Если вы не сядете за стол переговоров, чтобы найти мирный выход из ситуации, то в Ливии у вас нет будущего, вам придется бежать из Ливии. Каддафи не покинет Ливию и не уйдет с поста почитаемого, достойного, храброго и отважного лидера своей прекрасной нации. Вы – те, кому придется покинуть страну, если вы не начнете мирный диалог. Тогда мы сможем выработать общее понимание, как вывести страну из кризиса.

В противном случае, НАТО и повстанцы, у нас есть для вас новости: вы проиграли войну.

06: 56: Понимаете, нам нужно как-то сделать так, чтобы вы всегда правильно понимали выступления Лидера. Не знаю, может, нам стоит проводить встречи сразу после того, как Лидер выступит – однозначно, потому что для нас это представляет проблему. Лидер этого не говорил. Лидер сказал, что нам стоит вести переговоры – даже «разговоры», а не «переговоры» – разговоры, мы должны разговаривать, он сказал: «Но не я, – сказал он, – я никогда не стану разговаривать с этими людьми, пусть эту задачу возьмут на себя люди, которых показывает телевидение», – имея в виду народные массы Ливии. Народ Ливии может разговаривать с повстанцами, если захочет, и Лидер поддержит любое решение, которое примет народ Ливии. Но он сказал, что для него, почитаемого и достойного лидера, сражавшегося с войсками НАТО и стран Запада, это неподобающий уровень, положение не позволяет ему разговаривать с какими-то жуликами и предателями своей страны. Но это может сделать народ Ливии, если пожелает, поскольку его будущее поставлено на карту. И он действительно сказал: «Сделайте это, – призвал он массы, – поговорите с этими людьми и попытайтесь их вразумить, чтобы насилие прекратилось». И он сказал, «идите безоружными в оккупированный город Мисурата и в Западные горы, и призовите восточные племена, – и он назвал несколько племен, – призовите их разоружить вооруженные банды и отбить свои города».

Так что нам надо придумать что-то такое, чтобы у вас больше не возникало недопонимания. Есть один способ это сделать... у нас есть телеканал «Libyan English», вы знаете о нем? «Libyan English». Он вещает с 7 до 9, всего два часа. Это новый телеканал, созданный всего несколько недель назад. Может быть, можно сделать на нем дублирование, чтобы транслировать речь Лидера с наложенным переводом, тогда, возможно, вы будете точно понимать, что он думает. Другой вариант, если я здесь, сразу после выступления я могу выйти и объяснить, что имел в виду Лидер в своей речи. Потому что он сделал совершенно противоположную вещь, он сказал «нам нужно вести разговоры». И он призвал к этому народ, но сказал: «Нет, я никогда не стану говорить с этими людьми».

09: 37: Насколько я знаю, вчера вообще не было никакого теракта, просто рядом с отелем «Шератон» произошел взрыв газового баллона. …

10: 36: Э-э, я не знаю подробностей случившегося, но разумеется, как я говорил ранее, мы никогда не поощряем террористических актов. Никогда. Несмотря на то, что мы испытываем горечь, злость или печаль, мы никогда станем поощрять террористических актов против кого бы то ни было, даже против врагов Ливии. Как ранее сказал Лидер – и, большая просьба, правильно цитируйте его слова – он сказал: «Ненависть порождает ненависть», добавив, что ливийцы не станут вести себя как роботы, у них есть сердца. Он сказал, что если вы убиваете людей, нападете на них, убиваете детей, то должны понимать, что взращиваете ненависть в сердцах многих, и он добавил, что мы не можем контролировать сердца многих, и конечно же не можем сдерживать действия многих.

И через какое-то время, может быть, не сейчас, а завтра – может, через год, или через десять лет объявится какой-нибудь террорист вроде Усамы бен Ладена и убьет многих европейцев (или американцев), и люди зададут тот же тупой вопрос: «За что они нас ненавидят?» Да потому, что 10 лет назад вы убили его брата, или уничтожили его дом, или встали на сторону банд, терроризировавших его страну. Он вырос с ненавистью в сердце, вступил в какую-то дурацкую экстремистскую организацию и совершил теракт, чтобы отомстить – вот что такое терроризм.

Терроризм – это не фантазия, не пришелец из космоса; терроризм – это нечто, создаваемое вашими руками, то, за чем вы присматриваете и подкармливаете. Вот чем сейчас занимается НАТО: оно сеет терроризм в сердцах многих. К сожалению и прискорбию.

12: 37: Конечно, неделю назад в Тунисе состоялась встреча между высокопоставленными чиновниками Ливии и США, и, как мы полагаем, между сторонами произошел конструктивный диалог. Мы разъяснили американским коллегам множество вопросов; мы обнаружили и осознали, что у них нет целостной картины происходящего в Ливии; и мы исправили множество недопониманий, которые были у них по поводу страны. Мы полагаем, что дополнительные встречи ливийских и американских чиновников помогут решить проблемы в Ливии, что Соединенные Штаты Америки, будучи самой влиятельной страной в мире, несут на плечах особое бремя ответственности и должны действовать другими способами, отличными в особенности от меньших стран вроде Франции и Британии, и мы также полагаем, что в текущих условиях мирового господства США могут себе это позволить.

Все, что им нужно – это информация, факты, правда, и мы готовы это предоставить. Мы также готовы к дальнейшему диалогу с американцами, чтобы доказать, что наша политика прозрачна и мы держим свои обещания. Без вопросов. Американцы прекрасно знают, что Ливия была хорошим другом США последние 6 лет. По крайней мере 6 лет. Мы сотрудничали в вопросах терроризма. Это сотрудничество было крайне продуктивным. Ливия приняла жизненно важное участие в борьбе против Аль-Каиды в Исламском Магрибе. (продолжение в Части 2…)

Часть 2 (оригинальный ролик на YouTube)

00: 00: Если бы не Ливия, организация Аль-Каиды в Исламском Магрибе, преобладающая в Сахаре от Атлантического океана до границ Ливии, распространилась бы на восток до Египта и проникла в Израиль и другие страны, но Ливия, как скала, встала на ее пути.

Мы отказались от программы создания оружия массового поражения в 2003 году, что широко известно, и у нас были очень хорошие экономические отношения со Штатами. Развивались и культурные отношения, но, как мы полагаем, к прискорбию все это потеряно из-за американского участия в агрессии против нашей нации, хотя время еще есть, еще есть возможность. Если мы предоставим американским чиновникам правдивые факты, может быть, они изменят свое мнения и увидят Ливию такой, какая она есть.

Что касается повстанцев, у нас было множество встреч – когда я говорю «множество», я имею в виду 6 встреч на высшем уровне. Встречи проводились в различных мировых столицах: в Каире, в Риме, в Париже, в Осло, и мы встречались с разными чиновниками Переходного совета Бенгази. Я вообще-то называл их имена раньше, по-моему я отправлял кому-то из вас имейлы, тем, чьи адреса у меня есть, я отправил имейл с именами, датами, названиями городов и прочим – со стороны Ливии и со стороны Переходного совета.

Но мы обнаружили на этих встречах, наше общее заключение по поводу всех этих встреч таково, что в то время как мы как правительство выступаем с единой позицией, четкой картиной того, чего мы хотим, и пытаемся сдвинуть ситуацию в сторону выхода из кризиса, у представителей Совета единая позиция отсутствует, у них нет четкой картины того, чего они хотят, за исключением, разумеется, знаменитого «Каддафи должен уйти», что, извините, детский лепет, который ни к чему не ведет: просить кого-то уйти – это не политическая программа, это просто детский лепет. К тому же, они не общаются между собой, и них нет политической программы, которую можно обсуждать, такая у нас возникла проблема. Понятно, что руководство Совета из Бенгази происходит из различных политических слоев: кто-то из светских кругов, кое-кто очень религиозен, а остальные просто оппортунисты, готовые оседлать ту волну, которая поднимется. Поэтому все они предлагают разные идеи того, как все должно быть устроено, но все размытые. Мы также знаем, что между ними, особенно между светской частью и религиозной – разумеется, религиозная часть в основном представляет «Братьев-мусульман», все слышали про «Братьев-мусульман», с мощными связями с «Братьями-мусульманами» во всем мире; светская и либеральная часть имеет связи с Европой и Штатами, и это является причиной конфликта их интересов. Но, если они предоставят объединенное видение и политическую программу, нацеленную на мир и демократию в Ливии, возможно, мы сможем ее с ними обсуждать.

Продолжение следует...

English Transcript of the Press-Conference

Part 1

00: 00: I said to you that, because the armed gangs are losing the war in the ground and the Western mountain and in al-Brega (эль-Брега), because they feel (this is by the way answering your question, I really am giving you the big picture) because of the huge, mass demonstrations that have been taking place in the last few weeks, because of the unprecedented support of the tribes of the West, Middle and South of Libya to the leadership they are left only with lies, media attacks and misinformation to boost – and this is the sad part of it – the morale of young men in the Eastern part of the country so that they would continue their attack on al-Brega and die in doing so.

What is happening is this: they have been defeated heavily everywhere, they know that even if they gain ground for one day, two days or even a week that ground is going to be won back by the Libyan armed forces easily once NATO’s attacks soften. This is frustrating for the National Council of the traitors in Benghazi and they find it very difficult to recruit people. So the only way to do it – and I said this, I said that there are going to be lies and lies to recruit people – the only way is to lie about small victories here and there, and that mister Abdullah el-Senussi was killed, and that syphilis ??? was heard, and that so-and-so of the Libyan commanders or politicians were harmed in some way to give boost to the morale of the young men in Benghazi (Бенгази), Al Bayda (эль-Бейда), Al Marj (эль-Мардж) and deceive them basically and trick them into joining the civil war – or the armed gangs – and get killed with the gates of al-Brega. It’s very sad, but this is the case.

We gave you figures of the number of people who were killed in al-Brega. The young Libyan men are being killed near al-Brega every day in their dozens, and this is the saddest thing that I have to announce. And in the East part of the country this information is not given to the people there, so some keep sending their kids to the war front believing that al-Brega will fall and then Tripoli will fall and they will be victorious.

The truth of the matter is: we are very powerful, we are very strong as a government, as a state, we are not falling, we are not falling apart, we are able to perform every single duty a legitimate government should perform, from opening the smallest school in the smallest city to opening the big factories, to ministries, while in the East they cannot have one single school operating. We are powerful, we are strong, and we are not just relying on our armed forces.

And this is the information that NATO and the West through you should know. Our power is not just in the armed forces. You need to know that it’s in the tribes and the masses who are rallying behind the legitimate government of this country. That is why, even if NATO’s attacks continue for months upon months upon months, it will not succeed. As a matter of fact, as NATO kills more people – this is unfortunate that, you know, this is taking place – and as the rebels, the armed gangs kill more people, and more people are killed in the confrontations, more tribes join the fight, and tribes’ going back on the government becomes impossible because what happens, it doesn’t become even a… it doesn’t remain a political fight, it loses even its political face, it becomes a social honor fight.

When a Libyan tribe loses say 50 of its young men in the fight against NATO and against the armed gangs, NATO has lost this tribe forever. This is the knowledge that doesn’t get to NATO and to the West – that they have long alienated the Libyan people from any possible NATO operation. And it’s what we believe in our culture martyrs do, this is exactly what “martyrdom” means to us as Muslims. When someone becomes a martyr, his blood becomes the power by which you fight and you become victorious, and God knows NATO and the armed gangs gave us enough blood of the martyrs for us to keep fighting till the Day of Judgment.

NATO: you are losing, you will lose. The armed gangs in the Western mountain and the East of the country: you have no future in Libya. You have lost it, admit it. You need NATO to be with you, covering you, protecting you, bombing for you, rocketing for you all the time. And NATO cannot do that all the time, they will stop. And then, what will you do? If you do not come to the negotiation table and talk and find a peaceful way out of this, you have no future in Libya, you have to run away from Libya. Qaddafi will not leave Libya and he will not leave his position as the honorable, dignified, courageous, brave leader of this beautiful nation. You are the ones, who will have to leave unless you come and speak to us. Then we will have some sort of understanding and we will move the country forward.

Otherwise, I have news for you, both NATO and rebels, you have lost the war.

Q: …

06: 56: See, we have to find a way so that you never misunderstand the Leader’s speeches ever again. I don’t know how, but maybe we should have an immediate meeting after the leader speaks – absolutely, because this has been a problem for us. The Leader did not say that. The Leader said that we should have negotiations – or “talk”, not “negotiations” – a talk, we should talk, but he said: “Not me,” he said, “I will never speak to these people,” he said, “this matter is left to the people you see on the TV screen,” meaning the Libyan masses. The Libyan people are the ones who can have talks with the rebels if they want to, and whatever they decide, the Libyan people that he as a Leader will follow. But he said for him as an honorable dignified leader who fought against NATO, against the armies of the West, it’s not his level, it’s not his position to talk to some thieves and traitors of this country. But the Libyan people, because it’s their future, they can do that if they want. And he actually said “Do that,” he encouraged the masses, he said, “Talk to these people and try to talk sense into them, and stop this violence.” And he said, “March unarmed to the occupied cities of Misrata and the Western mountain and encourage the tribes of the East – and he named a few of these tribes – encourage them to disarm the armed gangs and to gain their cities back.”

So we need actually to arrange something so that you never misunderstand what the Leader says again. Maybe one of the ways we could do it… you do have the… we do have the “Libyan English” channel, are you aware of this channel? “Libyan English.” It broadcasts from 7 to 9, so only for two hours. It’s a new channel, only a few weeks old. And maybe we could use it with a voice over to broadcast the Leader’s speech whenever he speaks with a voiceover, and then maybe you can get exactly what he thinks. And otherwise if I’m here I could come out immediately and explain what the Leader has said in his speech. Because he did actually the opposite completely, he said “we need to have talks.” And he encouraged the people, but he said “No, me, I will never talk to these people.”

Q: …

09: 37: To my knowledge, there has been, or there was no attack yesterday whatsoever, there was an explosion near the Sheraton hotel caused by a gas cylinder. …

Q: …

10: 36: Er, well I don’t have enough details of this event, but of course as I said before we never support any acts of terrorism whatsoever. Whatsoever. Even as we are bitter and angry and sad, we will never support any acts of terrorism against anyone, even the enemies of Libya. What the Leader said before ¬– and please do quote the Leader correctly – what he said was, “Hatred begets hatred,” and that do not expect Libyans to be machines, they’re hearted. He said, if you kill people, if you attack people, if you murder children, expect that you are building a culture of hatred and violence in the hearts of the many, and he said we cannot control the hearts of the many, and indeed we cannot control the actions of the many.

And in time, maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow – maybe next year, maybe in ten years’ time a terrorist like Osama bin Laden will come out and will kill many Europeans (or many Americans) and then people will ask the same stupid question: “Why do they hate us?” Well, because you killed his brother 10 years ago, or destroyed his house, or sided with gangs that terrorized his country. He grew up with the hatred in his heart, joined some stupid extremist organization and attacked you to take revenge – and that’s the terrorism.

Terrorism is not a fantasy, is not a visitor from outside planet; terrorism is something you build with your own hands, and you look after it, and you make it grow. And this is what NATO is doing now: it’s planting terrorism in the hearts of many. And this is unfortunate and sad.

Q: …

12: 37: Yes indeed, there was a meeting between senior Libyan officials and senior American officials in Tunisia a week ago, and there was what we believe there was a productive dialog between the two parties. We did explain many things to the American officials; we realized and discovered they did not have the full picture of what was happening in Libya; and we corrected much misinformation they had about the country. And we believe that other meetings in the future between the Libyan officials and American officials will help solve Libyan problem, and we believe the United States of America as the most powerful country in the world has a specific and special responsibility on its shoulders to act differently, especially different to smaller countries like France and Britain, and we believe that the States can do that under the current leadership of America.

Just what they need is information, facts, truth, and we are willing to provide that. We are also willing to talk to the Americans more and to prove that we are transparent and honest about any promises we make. That’s for sure. The American officials know very well that Libya has been a good friend of the States for the last at least six years. At least six years. We collaborated together against terrorism. This collaboration was actually very productive. Libya was vital, was vital in the fight against al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb. (continued…)

Part 2

00: 00: If it wasn’t for Libya, al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb which dominates the Sahara from the Atlantic Ocean to the borders of Libya would have spread eastbound to Egypt and pass to Israel and other countries, but Libya stood as a rock against the spread of al-Qaeda.

We have abandoned our weapons of mass destruction program famously in 2003, and we had very good economic relations with the States. Cultural relations have been established, we believe that, sadly, all this was lost because of the American involvement in the aggression against our nation, but the time is not too late, there’s still opportunity, if the facts, truths are presented to the American officials maybe they will change their minds and see Libya for what it is.

As for the rebels, as indeed we had had many meetings – when I say “many”, I mean 6 meetings at the senior levels. They took place at different capitals of the world: one in Cairo, one in Rome, one in Paris, one in Oslo, and we met different officials from the Transitional Council of Benghazi. I actually did name these people before, I think I sent an email to some of you, whoever I have an email, actually I sent an email with the names, and the timing, and the capitals and everything – the Libyan side and the Transitional council side.

But we discovered in these meetings, the conclusion that goes through all of these meetings, is that why we as a Government come with a unified position, clear picture of what we want, and why we take the matter forward towards the solution of the crisis, the officials we meet from the Council do not have a unified position, do not have a clear image of what they want except of course for the famous “Qaddafi has to leave” which is I mean childish cry that will lead them nowhere – it’s not a political program to ask someone to leave, it’s just a childish cry, and they do not consult with each other, and they don’t have a political program we can discuss, and this is the problem we have. Of course the senior officials we met from Benghazi they come from different political cultures: some of them are secular, some are very religious, and some are opportunists from in between, you know, they ride with whatever wave is going up. So they have different ideas and different concepts of how things should be, but vague. And we know that between them, especially the secular part and the religious part – the religious part is mainly Muslim Brotherhood, of course, you all know Muslim Brotherhood, with powerful connections to the Muslim Brotherhood worldwide; the secular and liberal ones have connections to Europe and the States, and this is the source of conflict between them, but if they unify their vision and if they come up with a political program for peace and democracy in Libya then maybe we can discuss it with them.

Q: …

03: 58: What we offered to them is our position from the very beginning: we said to them – of course we said many things, but this is the main thing – we said, “you call for democracy in Libya, and you claim that you’re doing all of this damage and terror and the foreigners’ involvement in the country for democracy.” We say to them, the African Roadmap provides the best way forward for democracy, it says, one, a cease-fire, logically more than enough, secondly, humanitarian aid to everyone so that we make sure that Libyans are well, they are fed, and they have their water, the schooling and their salaries, because of course you cannot have the people free and voicing themselves freely if they are under attack by NATO or by the rebels. You can’t have them voicing themselves if they are hungry and thirsty.

So they have to do these two steps first before anything. Stop military operations – one; second – make sure that everyone has their livelihood back. Good. This will take of course a few months, you have to observe the cease fire and then make sure live goes back – this will take a few months. Thirdly, we enter into a dialog. And the dialog is inclusive, inclusive dialog which means it’s not just between what is called a Libyan Government and the Transitional Council of Benghazi because there’re other Libyans who say they’re not under the government of the rebels. We have tribes, we have Libyan politicians, political figures, intellectuals, we have people who left the country because they did not want to be involved, some of them actually at this moment have kind of constructed some political bodies for dialog and democracy in Libya – so we get every Libyan so that no one says “I’ve been excluded.” Every Libyan to sit and talk.

Now when you have a national dialog this might take a week, of a month, or a few months – but we have a timeframe, let’s say, three months of dialog which means around the clock talk until we reach an agreement of how we get into the fourth stage which is the transitional period that will involve whatever form agreed upon in the national dialog. So if we agree on a constitution – that is done; if we agree on Libya being a republic with elections, then this should be done; if it’s a monarchy, then this should be done; if it’s some sort of an inventive tribal society… whatever we agree upon. Then the implementation takes place in the fourth stage – with the elections and constitution and whatever we agree upon it.

This is logical, it’s safe, peaceful and we agree, we said from the very beginning, from before NATO started attacking us. We said this should be done in full transparency under the full supervision of the African Union, the United Nations and other international organizations. These organizations should be on the ground monitoring the transitional period.

We said “yes” to that, we signed it; this is the African Union’s Roadmap. Africa supported this roadmap on the two levels: first, on the government level, and the African Summit (these are the African Governments), and on the parliament level – the Pan-African Parliament also met and supported the Roadmap. And lately we hear later on – Russia, China, even France praising the African Roadmap. The only ones who said “no” to the African Roadmap which is so detailed and so logical and so on… are the rebels. They said “no.” and I have solved the puzzle for you before – I said to you why they said “no.”

It’s very simple – is for the same reason that NATO won’t listen to the African Roadmap which was proposed 4 months ago now. It’s because they know that in a peaceful democratic Libya Qaddafi stays as the figurehead of this country, the rebels have no future and Libya is united. This is a disaster, and we understand that. We almost understand the actions of NATO: they are so terrified of democracy in Libya, they are so terrified. Otherwise if they think democracy is anti-Qaddafi, why don’t they embarrass us and say “yes, let’s do it right now?” it will save lives, it will save them money they’re spending on rockets, it will lessen the opportunity of terrorism and it will help Libyan people move forward. But for 5 months almost now they’ve been saying “no, no, no.”

They are terrified of peace and democracy in Libya. And I assure you – hopefully in the future we meet again and I will say the famous quote to you, “I told you so” – you will hear it from me, I promise you, “I told you so,” – if we have peace and democracy in Libya, I assure you… I assure you, Qaddafi was ever an honorable and dignified leader of this country, he is now even more honorable and he has become a legend in the hearts of young Libyans.

Young Libyans – talk to young Libyans – young Libyans in their early 20’s and teenagers who did not witness the miracles performed by the Libyan Revolution of 1969, when the 27-year-old Qaddafi – 27-year-old – kicked the American soldiers, and French soldiers, and British soldiers, and Italian settlers – these are powerful countries – less than one year of the revolution. Within one year he freed, liberated Libya of all these forces of evil that were dominating Africa and the Arab world from Libya (из Ливии). The young people did not witness those miracles; they did not see what Qaddafi and the Revolution did – in education, in health, in transport, how Libya was transformed in a very short time from a very nomad nation, very poor, to a very rich, developed nation. And I’ve appealed to you before to go to the United Nations human development index, and I said to you “just do this.” Look for the indicators for Libya in 1970, then look for the indicators for Libya in 1975, then 1980, 1985, and you will not believe your eyes. And these are the United Nations indications. You will not believe… you will think that the god came down and did everything for the Libyans. The revolution was unprecedented, and it’s all of course because all oil was brought back to the Libyans, was taken back from the international companies and given back to the Libyans and spent on education, health, transport, housing and so on, and so on.

Now, the young Libyans are re-living the revolution, it’s their chance. It’s like Qaddafi was chosen twice to be the legend and the hero of this country: in 1969, when he was 27, and in 2011 when he is 70. I think it’s his luck, I envy him.

Q: …

12: 26: This is my initial response – I don’t think we have any journalists with us in custody. …

Q: …

14: 04: I would not call it “negotiation.” He said, because it doesn’t work they are not equal parties. You are talking about the Libyan nation and armed gangs. Nations do not negotiate with armed gangs. We are seeing this as an internal matter: these are people, Libyans, who have gone astray. And he has urged the Libyan nation to talk sense into them. He says, talk with them, have a dialog, see what they want, tell them that you oppose them and disarm them, (continued…)

Part 3

00: 00: and tell them they have to stop the violence and join any national inclusive political process that you, the Libyan masses, want. So he is not saying that the rebels should sit on one side of the table and you… We still are sane, and we stress that. We do not recognize the rebels whatsoever. They are armed gangs, they were yesterday, they are today, they will be tomorrow. We sit with them just to save the country.

Q: …

00: 37: No, we, the Libyan Government, Libyan officials… Okay. We have three levels of talk, if you like, let me explain it. We have the Leader, we have the Libyan officials, and we have Libyan people in their masses. Now, the Libyan Leader Qaddafi is off all of this – he will not be involved in any negotiations or dialog with these people. Okay?

Now, you have Libyan officials, such as myself or any Libyan minister. We have already been involved in talks and negotiations; you can call this “negotiations.” We will do that, we will continue doing that. And, you know…

But then you have the third level which is Libyan masses that the Leader was addressing. The Libyan masses will not negotiate with the rebels. They are asked or urged by the Leader to march unarmed to the occupied cities, talk sense into those rebels and force them to stop the violence and come back to the bosoms of the Libyan nation. Those who agree from the rebels then they are greeted back with love and forgiveness, he asked the masses (the Libyan Leader). Those who continue fighting, then it’s the duty of the Libyan masses to fight against them and eradicate them from Libya. Is that the..? Okay.

Q: …

02: 06: Qaddafi… You see, there is something you have already owned: no one can take it away from you. Qaddafi being the leader of this nation is something he already earned by being the leader of the Revolution and the one who changed the lives of Libyans forever, and he is held so dear in the hearts of millions. Now that there are thousands or tens of thousands of people who do not want him – this is their issue, they have to deal with it.

You know, the Queen of England is the leader of the British Nation, is the figurehead of the British Nation. This is not affected by the fact that there are Republican British people who hate monarchy and do not want it; she still remains the leading figure to the British nation, Okay.

Now, Qaddafi did much more to Libyans than the Queen of England did to the British. I mean, he did not just… he was not just born into a Royal family; Qaddafi was a poor young nomad, bedouin man from the desert of Sirt (Сирт). And he led young men from all the tribes of Libya and fought against the power that is the foreign military bases in Libya and against the Royal family of Libya, and freed Libya. So he is even dearer to us. So no, I don’t think any negotiations will affect the position of the Leader, as the leader of this country whatsoever.

Now, this is not related to politics; democracy is about politics, decision making – this is all for negotiation. We can choose the Republic, keep the Jamahiriya system we have now, move towards – or backwards – to monarchy – anything Libyans decide. But it has to be what Libyans decide, not what rebels decide or NATO decides.

Q: …

04: 09: You see, listen to the arrogance; listen to the arrogance and the stupidity and ignorance of these people. These people have no right to ask any Libyan citizen to leave their country. They have no right to ask any Libyan official or any Libyan leader of any sort to step down. This is a matter for the Libyan people, not for foreigners to decide. As I said, now that we have spilt all these blood – the blood of our martyrs, the blood of our children, our women and men, the blood of our honorable dignified soldiers in our armed forces – thousands of them in the last few months – we will never betray their sacrifice. We are all prepared to fight to the end; we are all prepared to sacrifice. This is our moral stand, this is our moral position. I talk about myself as an individual in this country; I talk about my brothers and sisters, my neighbors, my friends, the millions of Libyans.

You have to know this – I know it’s very difficult for many to believe, but actually we have made our decision long ago: NATO will not win, and the rebels will not win. We, the Libyans, will win. Leader Muammar Qaddafi will be victorious. And we will stand as the beautiful dignified example of free nations when they fight the forces of evil that is NATO and the West when they hunger after oil and power and they are prepared to kill everyone for it.

And also we believe by winning we will expose the ugly – ugly information war that was mounted against us at the very beginning, and every lie has been exposed. And in the future it will be much more difficult to deceive other nations and much more difficult to lead information wars against other nations. We believe as Libyans this will be our glory in the books of history. The amount of lying and misinformation about this country and about this government is unprecedented. I hold my PhD in Media Studies, I know what I’m talking about: never anything I read or studied in the Universities of the West prepared me for such a media war, ever. Ever. So we are standing here for the honor of the human race, not just for Libya.